some things to consider

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Angie
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some things to consider

Postby Angie » Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:50 pm

I know I'll be met with impatience, or told I should have faith and quit questioning and turn off my mind since it'll never comprehend, or patronized/condescended/talked down to like a child and told I haven't read the messages properly if at all. But my soul is telling me something doesn't sound right when it comes to the divine love path, and though they won't be answered to my satisfaction, I'd like to pose queries for consideration.

1. God created humans and told them to overcome their humanness through hard work or prayer for all eternity to reach a goal. Why would a loving God create humanity, then stipulate that they must overcome the natural human feelings and behaviors given to them in the first place?

2. God's expectations sound difficult if not impossible to attain, putting an enormous amount of pressure on people to reach them, even if they are told not to aim for perfection. The "straight and narrow" is *too* straight and narrow, yet God refuses to modify this, which doesn't sound loving. The Mormon faith in its original form before the church's corruption is a good example of God's unrealistic standards. Why would a loving God do that, if not to subtly control people into behaving how he'd like them to to achieve a certain end? The fact that he says, "You have free will, but if you don't choose the divine love path you won't be immortal" sounds manipulative, and the fact that he indirectly pressures people to follow rules by saying, "you break natural law even with small transgressions, so the law of compensation must be paid in full, because actions have consequences. But I love you" is cruel, not loving. The statement "You'll be in the hells or the 1st sphere when you die, but don't worry because you can get out of it" sounds no better than the direct threat of the eternal-hell belief so common among traditional Christianity. The only difference is that the former is subtle manipulation while the latter is an in-your-face declaration, but they both have the end result of instilling fear, guilt or shame.

3. Why would a loving God require anyone to earn immortality or divinity? Immortality should be a free gift that automatically comes with the teritory of God's creations from the start, not a badge of honor earned through effort or deserved through action. There are plenty of good people on this planet, myself included, who do not wish to purify or transform our souls but desire the best of both worlds by having our cake and eating it too? What if we want to be divine and immortal on a natural love path? Or suppose we want divinity and immortality while following no path at all? The universe's "There are only 2 paths, like it or not, that's the way it is" doesn't sound loving, nor does the God who created it. It's more loving to say: When God creates someone, that creation is both immortal and divine, no questions asked. Love, divinity and immortality are unconditional, no matter what.

4. The closure of the celestial heavens and the fate of the natural love spirits (they're either excluded from the privileges of the celestial kingdom, limited to where they can travel, or might have a soul longing for something more) sounds conditional, as if God is a sly manipulator who cunningly sways the situation in his favor: "I want everyone to experience the bliss of the divine love, and if I can influence people to have a desire to seek it for themselves by putting a thought in their souls that it's the only thing that brings happiness and makes people immortal, they'll make that decision. And if they don't, I set up the universe so that all those who refuse the gift of my love will be refused immortality and divinity."

5. Alarm bells go off when I hear people claim with certainty "We have all the answers, this is the only way, the one true correct interpretation of the Bible, if you don't have a fraction of the divine love or even an inkling of desire to receive it, you won't become immortal after death." This is fear at work, whether overt or covert. Doesn't this "choose either the natural or divine love path" sound like an "us and them" polarization mentality? If there are many paths but only 2 gates, I ask: Why can't there be many paths and 20 gates?

6. In the 6th sphere people have religions, which means they aren't in possession of absolute truth. Divine love Christianity is a religion. Wouldn't that make divine love Christians hypocrites, even if they're on the DL path?

When asked how long one must pray for the divine love, why would a loving God respond, "for the rest of your earth life and throughout all eternity?" Even if you follow that path and gain access to the celestial kingdom, it's never enough and the work is never finished, since one must keep praying forever. If nothing's wrong with staying contentedly where you are, and the reception of divine love isn't of utmost dire importance as the messages claim since everyone will be happy irrespective of their choices, why the urgency to get as many people on the divine love bandwagon as soon as possible? If the celestial heavens reportedly won't close anytime soon, why engage in all this talk of "Hurry and don't miss this one-time offer!" As if it's a store clearance sale and people should buy now or else they've missed their chance? God as "father" and humans as "children" is infantalizing, not to mention that some people don't want to be carbon copy clones of God, or even have God-like virtues and no vices. They'd rather be immortal and fully themselves, warts and all.

A loving God created humans, then requires them to overcome human behaviors called sin, which break natural law, which an inordinately high number of humans seem to do, by virtue of simply being human. This loving God says, "You can do whatever you like, but I will hold you accountable, so if you don't choose the divine love path and become like me, the consequences are that you won't be divine or immortal. And you can be in the 6th sphere, but once the heavens close, you'll be denied entry, but no worries, because you'll be happy, except someday when you crave something deeper." Which technically means you won't be happy. Sounds like guilt-tripping and indirect fear-mongering to me. A true loving God would make everyone immortal and divine, regardless of the path they choose to follow, if any. It's love that matters, not the type of love. Everyone would possess love in varying degrees, and by their own choice, some would be a precise replica of God in terms of characteristics while some wouldn't, but everyone would have immortality and divinity nonetheless.

Religious people attack the questioner instead of considering that their dogma, doctrine, ideology or teachings might be wrong. But as a branch of Christianity, Divine Love Christianity is like any other religion, and manmade faiths are prone to false information. As annoying as my questions undoubtedly are to you, I ask them because many of your tenets don't feel right in my heart, a red flag that perhaps they might be as off the mark as the faith you claim to be so separate from, when you are doing many of the same things you admonish traditional Christianity for, though perhaps without realization or recognition.

I hope I have made my questions abundantly clear. You ask: You must pick one, so what will it be, natural love or divine love? I have made my decision. My answer: Pathless. I choose nothing.
Last edited by Angie on Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Geoff
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Re: some things to consider

Postby Geoff » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:11 am

Angie wrote:I know I'll be met with impatience, or told I should have faith and quit questioning and turn off my mind since it'll never comprehend, or patronized/condescended/talked down to like a child and told I haven't read the messages properly if at all. But my soul is telling me something doesn't sound right when it comes to the divine love path, and though they won't be answered to my satisfaction, I'd like to pose queries for consideration.


Woah, maybe you should go back to bed today Angie? Geez thats a bunch of judgements to bring here. :cry: :cry: I answer questions patiently. There can come a point where I see that my answers are not accepted, and then I may simply suggest that your path is obviously elsewhere. But thats generally folks who come here to try and upset my apple cart, and have no intention of getting an answer from me.

Angie wrote:1. God created humans and told them to overcome their humanness through hard work or prayer for all eternity to reach a goal. Why would a loving God create humanity, then stipulate that they must overcome their natural human feelings and behaviors given to them in the first place?


I don't think thats the case at all. God created our souls, and they are perfect although needing to "grow". They needed to "individualise" and to achieve that they incarnated into ANIMALS. That means we have animal characteristics, but our pure state does not. The animal characteristics are not wrong or bad per se, only when you consider that our journey is to grow back to that which we are - soul. Consider that God did create literally billions of PERFECT creatures, i.e. angels, and He is quite capable of doing that, obviously. But He then tasked them (angels) with looking after us. We were deliberately not created perfect, we alone have an incredible potential growth path, way beyond that offered to any of those created perfect, but we have to grow into it. Why? God knows I can only guess. We are told that a perfected human who has started literally at the bottom and overcome all is incredibly useful to the universes. Seeing as God created so many of us, He must think its a very good idea. Now you could have been created as one of His perfect creatures, but you were not. When we ask them, they rather "envy" us, although envy is the wrong word.

Angie wrote:2. God's standards sound difficult if not impossible to reach, and it puts an enormous amount of pressure on people to meet them, even if they are told to not expect perfection. The "straight and narrow" is a bit too straight and narrow, yet God refuses to modify this, which doesn't sound loving. The Mormon faith in its original form before the church's corruption is a good example of God's unrealistic standards. Why would a loving God do that, if not to subtly control people into behaving how he'd like them to to achieve a certain end? The fact that he says, "You have free will, but if you don't choose the divine love path you won't be immortal" sounds manipulative more than anything, and the fact that he indirectly pressures people into following his high expectations by saying, "you break natural law even with small transgressions, so the law of compensation must be paid because actions have consequences. But I love you" is cruel, not loving. The statement "You'll be in the hells or the 1st sphere when you die, but don't worry because you can get out of it" sounds no better than the direct threat of the eternal-hell belief so common among traditional Christianity. The only difference is that the former is subtle manipulation while the latter is an in-your-face declaration, but they both have the end result of instilling fear, guilt or shame.


I don't get any of your point here. God only asked that we be loving. And even if we are not, all that happens is after death we are placed in that location where we are in harmony with our surroundings. Now that may be a very unpleasant place, but we still have the choice to become loving, and then we move to much nicer surroundings. What is hard about that?

Angie wrote:3. Why would a loving God require anyone to earn immortality or divinity? Immortality should be a free gift that automatically comes with the teritory of God's creations from the start, not a badge of honor earned through effort or deserved through action. There are plenty of good people in the world, myself included, who do not wish to purify or transform our souls, or we choose a natural-love path, or no love path at all, and we still wish to be immortal. Why can't we choose a natural love path and be immortal and divine at the same time? The universe's "There are only 2 paths, like it or not, that's the way it is" doesn't sound loving, nor does the God who created it. It feels far more loving to say: When God creates something or someone, that creation is both immortal and divine, no questions asked.


I answered this above. God could have made you into say a divine cherubim. You would have a job to do, and be created perfect for that job. And you would do that job for gazillions of years before inching upwards a tiny bit. Or you could be a human, and have a mind-blowing journey ahead. Yes He gives you the choice on that journey, you can "blow it", you can miss the turning, or you can go all the way. But He never stops loving you.

Angie wrote:4. The closure of the celestial heavens and the fate of the natural love spirits (they're either excluded, not granted immortality, not considered divine, limited to where they can travel, or might have a soul longing for something more) doesn't sound loving. Rather it sounds like God is a sly manipulator who cunningly sways the situation in his favor: "I want everyone to experience the bliss of the divine love, and if I can influence people to have a desire to seek it for themselves by putting a thought in their souls that it's the only thing that brings happiness and makes people immortal, they'll make that decision. And if they don't, I set up the universe so that all those who refuse the gift of my love will be refused immortality and divinity."


Well you make up your own mind. I think God is not stupid, and before He FUSES with YOU, he wants to know that you are not going to mess up His eternal kingdom. Although some numbers of created perfect creatures, using their free will, have chosen iniquity, and been dealt with, I believe not a single human who has reached and entered the Celestial has ever failed. Bear in mind that He just gave you the KEY to HIs Kingdom, and you can wreak havoc there if you choose to. So you don't get the key until you have demonstrated that you have chosen His Will over your own. That makes it sound to me like Father has a very smart plan. But you seem to forget that you can refuse the Divine Love and still experience unbelievable happiness. In fact this is the reason why its normally impossible to convince a spirit in the sixth sphere that Divine Love is a thing worth seeking. They are not interested, by and large. So Father has indeed said, do what you like. I will allow you your happiness, but if you WONT follow my path, then you cant fuse with me. Seems a fair deal to me. And seems to me to be the epitome of unconditional love. And of course we don't know if the heavens will open again. After all they closed about the time of Adam and Eve, and opened again with Jesus, I personally would not expect them to be closed for all eternity. Bye the bye the word "manipulation" is not used when the actions are to the benefit of the third party - us. Manipulation is a word used when actions taken are to the detriment of the third party and to the benefit ONLY of the first party. All good parents try to guide their children in a way that grows them into wonderful adults. That certainly seems to be the case here, as far as I can see.

Angie wrote:5. Alarm bells go off when I hear "this is the only way, the one true correct interpretation of the Bible, if you don't have the divine love or even the desire to receive it, you won't become immortal after death." This is fear at work, whether overt or covert. Also, doesn't this "natural/divine-love path, choose one" sound like an "us and them" polarization mentality? If there are many paths but only 2 gates, I ask: Why can't there be many paths and 20 gates?


Well in a sense there are many "ways", but only one 'gate" to the Celestial. Because you only have one soul, and until you advance your soul to the point it is sufficiently developed to FUSE with Father, you cant pass that point. But the Sufi have found the way, the Hindu have found the way, Mother Teresa and other Christians found the way even though they had no teachings at all in that regard. How fair is that? You don't even have to know the way. Any time you reach out to God in love, you are the path. Is that hard?

Angie wrote:6. In the 6th sphere people have religions, which means they aren't in possession of absolute truth. Well, divine love Christianity is a religion. Wouldn't that make divine love Christians hypocrites, even if they're on the DL path? Also, in answer to the question "how long must one pray for the divine love", why would a loving God say, "for the rest of your earth life and throughout all eternity?" That's a ton of work, and even if you follow that path and gain access to the celestial kingdom, it's never enough and the work is never finished, since one must keep praying ad infinitum. What's wrong with staying contentedly where you are? If the answer is nothing, and the reception of divine love isn't of utmost dire importance as the messages claim since everyone will be happy irrespective of their path, then why the urgency to get as many people on the divine love bandwagon as soon as possible? If the celestial heavens reportedly won't close anytime soon, why engage in all this talk of "Hurry and don't miss this one-time offer!" As if it's a store clearance sale and people should buy now or else they've missed their chance? Plus, the terminology of God as "father" and humans as "children" is infantalizing. Furthermore, people might not want to be carbon copy clones of God, or even have God-like virtues and no vices. They'd rather be immortal and fully themselves, warts and all.

A loving God created humans, then requires them to overcome human behaviors, which he calls sin, which break natural law, which an inordinately high number of humans seem to do, by virtue of simply being human. This loving God says, "You can do whatever you like, but if you don't choose the divine love path and become like me, with my exact qualities, you won't be immortal or divine like me. And you can be in the 6th sphere, but once the heavens close, you'll be denied entry, but no worries, because you'll be happy, except someday when you crave something deeper." Which technically means you won't be happy. Sounds like guilt-tripping and indirect fear-mongering to me. A true loving God would make everyone immortal and divine, regardless of the path they choose to follow, if any. It's love that matters, not the type of love. Everyone would possess love in varying degrees, and by their own choice, some would be a precise replica of God in terms of characteristics while some wouldn't, but everyone would have immortality and divinity nonetheless.

Religious people do not like to be questioned and will make the questioner feel at fault, rather than their dogma (AKA doctrine, ideology, teachings.) But as a branch of Christianity, Divine Love Christianity is technically a religion, like any other, and manmade faiths are prone to false information.


I would answer that Divine Love is not a religion. There are no ceremonies you must go through, no priest to intervene, no particular dogma to accept, no church group to attend, no confessions to make, no masses to attend, no tithes to contribute it is just you and Father. On the other hand I agree with you that people like religions (the group thing and belonging) and so there are two church groups on this path. But they don't have ceremonies, just prayer retreats. Hanging out and sharing the LOVE.

Angie wrote:Divine Love Christianity is technically a religion, like any other, and manmade faiths are prone to false information.


It is impossible in this realm to have absolute Truth, for a great many reasons. I agree that no matter how hard we try, we don't have the language, or the intellect to describe anything perfectly. But Father made his path so simple you don't need to worry. Just be love. Your understanding will not get you there, only the love. So don't worry about misunderstanding. Just be the love.


Angie wrote:As annoying as my questions undoubtedly are to you, I ask them because many of your tenets don't feel right in my soul, which is a red flag that perhaps they might be as off the mark as the faith you claim to be so separate from, and you are doing many of the same things you admonish traditional Christianity for, though perhaps without realization or recognition.


I don't believe I have attacked you here or in any way done anything except try to answer the question. I have asked you why you seem to have come here with a predisposed attitude that indicates you have pre-judged how you will be dealt with here. I try not to be judgemental, because its a good way to live. And if you don't like what I have told you, thats 100% fine with me, because I am not your keeper. Its your journey, and I wish you well on it.

Angie wrote:I hope I have made my questions abundantly clear. You ask: You must pick one, so what will it be, natural love or divine love? I have made my decision. My answer: Pathless. I choose nothing.


Heh heh. I could have saved myself a LOT of time here. (You seem to have added this some time later?) That means you choose a Natural Love path. Yup its a default path unless YOU make a "mistake" and reach out to your Creator in love. Because that will put you on the Divine path, at least for that moment in time. All the intellectuals, religionists, atheists and so on. Yes many from religions, but only when its purely intellectual. You only have those two choices, unless you ask for annihilation which I would think a rather harsh reaction to not getting your own way? And which will only be granted if you are adjudged sane, and few of us meet that criteria by angelic standards. Yup annihilation is the only way you can choose no path. And thats spiritual annihilation, not suicide which simply moves you to the next realm.

I can see you have read a lot on my site, and so I certainly would not say you have not read enough. But obviously something in you rejects these teachings. Thats fine. Go well.

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Re: some things to consider

Postby Angie » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:47 am

Your final email to me, your replies on an amazon discussion thread and your replies to my previous post on this board all felt judgmental a lot of times, especially "I'm not even going there because you're not on first base" and other comments.

You say: God created our souls, which are perfect but they need to grow. Then: God didn't create us perfect. Which is it? If our souls are perfect we don't need to grow, and if they need to grow they aren't perfect.

God says: I'll allow you your happiness but if you don't follow my path, you can't have immortality. This is a scare tactic designed to instill guilt, fear or shame. You're deliberately withholding something someone else wants until they do what you want them to do. You call it consequences to actions. I call it bribery, manipulation, guilt trip, ultimatum, etc. regardless of the supposed benefits to us.

The fact that God allows people into his celestial kingdom only after he decides whether they've met certain protocols suggests to me that God doesn't trust his creations enough to regulate themselves, so he has to give them consequences "If you choose inequity I'll deal with you. If you don't do this, you can't have that." That isn't loving. A loving God who trusts his creations would automatically give everyone immortality and divinity because he knows it's not dependent on the type of love path you choose. If they made it to the 6th sphere, he can take their word for it that they'll be OK, no matter what they do.

What if I consider myself a loving person, and I want immortality and divinity but do not wish to follow the divine love path? What would you say to me? "Sorry, there's only 2 choices, you can't have what you want?" That's cruel. A loving God would say, "Sure, you can follow a natural love path, or no path at all, and still be immortal and divine. Take it. You're a good person. You're not hurting anybody, so no reason why you can't have it. Here's how you can have your cake and eat it, too." I should be allowed that choice, and the fact that I am not given that option doesn't sound loving to me.

What if you went to the spirit world, and discovered everything you thought you knew about Divine Love Christianity was wrong? You didn't have to pray for the love, you didn't have to have a yearning burning desire, you didn't have to do anything or go anywhere, you didn't have to fulfill any requirements to be immortal and divine, because as one of God's creations, you were automatically immortal and divine, no matter what, no questions asked, just like all his other creations, regardless of the path they choose, if any at all? What if immortality was a free gift given to all, regardless of their life choices?

A religion doesn't have to have clergy, books, church organizations or material things. Spirituality is religion, though noone calls it that. Religion is simply beliefs, dogma, doctrine and ideology like, "God does/doesn't exist", "here's how to live a good life", "develop these moral/spiritual qualities to become a good person", or "you might be in an unpleasant place after death, but you can get out of it" (which isn't loving, by the way. That's fear.) Anyway, there's a really good write-up called "the Cult Test" that you can google. It has 100 statements and gives examples of each. It's worth looking.

I like your writing style and agree with some of what you have to say, but though you claim disagreements are all right, I get the sense that whenever we disagree, I am seen as the one who doesn't understand, and you are the seen as the one with the definitive answers on "these will be the consequences if you aren't loving after you die." And all I ask is: What if we truly don't know?

What if earth wasn't a school at all? Suppose it wasn't designed for growth, and after death everyone was automatically immortal and divine because they were God's creation? And there was no plan? What if growth wasn't the reason for humans existing? You just came to earth, did what you wanted out of curiosity, and moved on to other realms in the multiverse, with no purification or transformation required or necessary? You're a good person, and some people just want to live an entirely pleasant life, not overcome anything or help the universe. They should have that right, and it shouldn't be called "blowing it" or "missing the turn" because what if there's nothing to blow or no turn to miss? You just traveled on, or stayed, and you weren't hurting anybody, you're not an ax murderer? So what if you do your own will instead of God's will anyway? You can regulate yourself to make good decisions, no matter what realm you're in, and you're the only one that counts. What if humans aren't children, God isn't our father, Adam and Eve weren't "first parents" or all the rest of it?

I'm an intellectual and need to understand these things, otherwise my soul is not satisfied. You need both your head and heart to be in harmony, and by saying "just be the love", it sounds like a directive to "turn off your mind, don't worry about trying to understand it." Because I need to understand it intellectually.

Dogma and doctrine are the same thing. An example of dogma is "If you're not loving you'll wind up in an unpleasant afterlife realm." Or "God existt." Or "you have to pray for the love to reach God's kingdom." You can say all you like nobody is required to believe it, but technically in a way they are, because as you say, "I'm not your keeper" which under the surface means, "It's your journey and you won't find out I'm right until after you're dead." So if we take it you're right, then people do have to pray for divine love to get things. It would be better if religious people would say, "Maybe we're wrong and those are great questions, we don't know what we're talking about sometimes." Humility. But the message boards, channeled messages, and other writings are filled with such definitive declarations of "this is the way it is" that religious people come off as dogmatic, though they don't call it that.

I wish you well.
Last edited by Angie on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: some things to consider

Postby Geoff » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:05 am

Angie wrote:Your final email to me, your replies on an amazon discussion thread and your replies to my previous post on this board all felt judgmental a lot of times, especially "I'm not even going there because you're not on first base" and other comments.



I have not posted on a Amazon forum for a great many years, so i truly don't know if what you claim has any merit. I have not emailed you so i suppose that part you perhaps mean "post". If you believe I have been judgemental in this most recent post, yet I have never addressed anything except your opinions, that is not judgemental. I have used the term "I'm not even going there because you're not on first base" in the search thread here and I don't know where you found that, nor does it sound like what I would say. Your post prior to this one seems to be about two years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=211&p=1024#p1024

I cant see anything there that could give a base to what you claim.

I would prefer if you are going to now make this personal, which it seems you are, you include links so i can see if you have a point. Its impossible to respond to a generic attack like this. But its also very sad, because you are no longer looking at the issues. But I already could see you are not interested in the message of this site. Lets leave it there?

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Re: some things to consider

Postby Angie » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:31 am

I choose a natural love path, then. But I believe there are no mistakes on paths. To say "if you make a mistake, just call out to the creator in love and you'll be on the divine love path for that moment" implies that the divine love path is superior. And as your teachings say, nothing is better or superior than another, just different. I also reject the ridiculously high expectations of God, as it seems everyone suffers after death, even temporarily, and that's not loving at all. I prefer a loving God who is my definition of loving.

Your quote in response to a post I made a few years ago on a thread entitled, "Intro and question about Born to Heal":
"Not entirely true, but partially true. I don't think there is any point in trying to go there with you, because right now you are not on first base."

You also emailed me some months ago, saying, "You can probably sense my frustration with you" among other things.

amazon discussion pg 7
http://www.amazon.com/forum/christianit ... 99KFEUTG97

I'm merely providing the links so you have them for future reference, not to personally attack you in any way. But what I read was shocking. My soul/spirit/heart rejected your teachings, not just my head. And something in them didn't feel right on a deep level, which is a clue that my heart is leading me away from them, in the right direction for me, because they either weren't right for me or weren't right at all. The spirit, soul and heart never lie.

Again, I wish you all the best.
Last edited by Angie on Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: some things to consider

Postby Geoff » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:43 am

Dear Angie,

Thank you, that was indeed some three years plus ago. I don't know what was shocking, but I accept that is up to the reader, and that site was certainly "robust". As to the emails, I do answer a lot of emails, and some of them become very circular, a bit like this thread here today, and sometimes I even confuse one person with another.

By the way, I see now that you are Angie Bourdeau, and I must have had 30 to 40 emails with you in 2012 to 2013, many of them very long. I think if I expressed a bit of frustration there, I might just be human? Its a real pity that after all that personal interaction you can't cut me any slack. But such is life.

I did not associate the email Angie Bourdeau with the board Angie. You may indeed question everything that is on this site, and conclude you believe none of it. But please don't tell me that when I wish you well I am some how threatening you because I am not. You are indeed in charge of what you believe and where you take those beliefs. And yes on Amazon I found I was getting affected by the very harsh posting styles of others, and I gave it away. Those environments tend to feed ego and not much else.

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Re: some things to consider

Postby Sandy » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:16 pm

Hello Angie,
I began this earlier today and I am afraid a lot has happened on this thread between you and Geoff since I was last here. I hope you do not mind if I go ahead and send this. I am a bit of a simple person and have no intentions of debating beliefs here or anywhere yet I was hoping to interject a bit of thought on a few of the issues you originally posted if that is alright...
Please bare with me as this is a little long.. (understatement :roll: )

First of all, I must admit to you that I am not exactly a Divine love follower in the strictest meaning of the word...that is, I suppose my own choice of shall we call it, “belief material,” the stuff that creates a sort of structure in most any person’s spiritual or religious path is different from most of the people who post here and a bit different from the points you present. But I think it is impossible not to have some structure of a sorts regarding beliefs, even if you make having no belief your structure... Anyway, I would like to share with you some of my thoughts, keeping in mind they are simply my thoughts and what help me get through the moments, days, weeks and years more joyously... others will have their own and that is okay... I suspect the First Source of all there is, loves the vast diversity in His/Her children.
So here goes....

You wrote:
“God created humans and told them to overcome their humanness through hard work or prayer for all eternity to reach a goal. Why would a loving God create humanity, then stipulate that they must overcome the natural human feelings and behaviours given to them in the first place?”


This seems to be a theme in many religions and spiritual endeavours doesn’t it? Well, I am thinking that the biggest reason God wishes us to, let’s say, improve upon ourselves, could be because in the long run it makes us happier. May I give you an example from my personal experience some years ago? When I first began questioning some of the harsh dogmas of the religion of my family, I was introduced to stillness meditation, which you are probably familiar with. It is simply a relaxing of your thoughts allowing the mind to quiet until you reach a peaceful place within. As I practiced this... I began to notice that while in stillness, a feeling of light joyfulness became evident... at first as if it was flowing through me and it stayed with me long after this special time. This went on for months and it suddenly dawned on me one day on my way home from work, that I was not the least bit hassled by the rude behaviours of the other drivers... something that has been a pet peeve of mine and a bit of a problem for lets see, FOREVER. (of course I am a perfect driver LOL) I couldn’t tell you when it happened, but it was an out working of this divine kind of love. I found I was making decisions that were healthier for me and benefited those around me. Not to say I didn’t loose it at times and still don’t... but I just noticed I felt better about so many things that used to cause stress and disturb my sense of equilibrium. So my point in bringing this up is...I am wondering if the desire for us to improve ourselves is more for our own benefit then for that of others... As a parent I can sort of look at it from viewing my own children who I will love and adore absolutely no matter what they do, but I long for and so hope for them to grow in compassion, kindness and increasing love for themselves and those around them. Not for me but for them so they will live happier and more productive lives.

You wrote:
“God's expectations sound difficult if not impossible to attain, putting an enormous amount of pressure on people to reach them, even if they are told not to aim for perfection.”


Whew! They would be for sure if we had to do them all at once or in a limited time frame. But that isn’t the case. We will always have all the time we need to reach not only God’s goal for us but the ones we set for ourselves in eternity. Otherwise... how could God be a perfect parent, let alone a loving God? We don’t have to learn everything we need to know from the confines of this earth plane or with the same material mind humans possess here, unique and wonderful though they may be. God sees who we are now, all our beauty and all the stuff perhaps we aren’t so proud of, but he sees us through eyes that understands why we are the way we are... why we think the way we do, why we act the way we do why we speak the way we do from our own unique experiences, personality etc. that shape us into the person we are at this moment. And from this experience brought about from this decision or that decision, we choose directions or paths throughout our lives. God knows everything we will think do and say throughout our eternal life...and he knows it in an instance all of it all at once without question... It is mind boggling! So I it makes no sense for me that the One Source who loves us beyond comprehension is overly concerned at our little blips of imperfection at this point or any point in our “eternal careers” any more then a loving yet imperfect human parent would be appalled by something their beloved 4 month old baby didn’t understand or accomplish. Because in many ways humans in our mortal forms are very much the babies of the universe with so much knowledge, wisdom, and love, yet for us to discover.

You wrote:
"You have free will, but if you don't choose the divine love path you won't be immortal" sounds manipulative, and the fact that he indirectly pressures people to follow rules by saying, "you break natural law even with small transgressions, so the law of compensation must be paid in full, because actions have consequences.


Hmm the way it reads seems harsh to me too, now keep in mind I am not a "blue blooded Divine Love Padgett follower"... But I sort of see it like this... First of all, Divine Love is our birth right. It is something that is so natural to us or will be that there will be no doubt that anyone who wishes to progress even the tiniest bit will do just that... Anybody who turns their heads upward and inward in love will find what they are searching for and this in itself, is transforming... This budding transformation happens sometimes slowly at first, sometimes in ways that takes our breath away, but with even the tiniest bit of encouragement from us we feel the Love of the Source. But yes...we do transgress don’t we?... and as arguably, the biggest transgressor on the planet some days, I feel a sadness sometimes when I have hurt or wronged someone... and I want to make amends. Not because I “have to", but as I draw a little bit closer to God in my life, I “want to" because I can feel the other person’s pain and I am a bit ashamed. So when I look at the somewhat strict sound of the law of compensation once again I can see perhaps that it could be something very natural for us, for all of God’s children as they learn to love. Love is very healing for those who give and for those who receive. And so what could be more healing in body, soul and mind then in asking for forgiveness or in receiving forgiveness?

You wrote:
”The statement "You'll be in the hells or the 1st sphere when you die, but don't worry because you can get out of it" sounds no better than the direct threat of the eternal-hell belief so common among traditional Christianity. The only difference is that the former is subtle manipulation while the latter is an in-your-face declaration, but they both have the end result of instilling fear, guilt or shame.”


Well, once again, I may see things a little different from others here... but if you don’t mind, I will still give you my thoughts on this complex and controversial subject. I think the word “hell” is more of a condition then a place. Many people live in hell on earth and often times it is of their own making because of the way they think of and treat themselves, and then others. The shame and the guilt is of our own making. At least the shame and guilt you speak of here. I can think of plenty of times I have been ashamed and have done something about it... tried to rectify the problem. But in reality, sometimes we can hurt ourselves and other people and cause situations so damaging that the solutions are hard to come by here... They become buried in our own material pursuits or perhaps the issues, misunderstandings or misdeeds cause us so much distress in our emotional bodies that our mind cannot face the situation, we can even become hardened to the situation of wrong doing making all kinds of excuses for the behaviour and so the solution remains unresolved on this world.
Because we certainly don’t enter the next realm all “ironed and pressed” I think the memory of some of those unresolved things might be a tad clearer as we progress there... and so as we grow ever so gently into a being perhaps who would wish to right these misdeeds. It would be very natural as we see with always a little more clarity. I have just been reminded of change just now. Change as we are speaking of here is not something to dread or be feared it is a natural part of our existence and with each new level of love and understanding we easily flow towards our loving birth right.

You wrote:
Why would a loving God require anyone to earn immortality or divinity?


Why would anybody not want to be all they can be? The very best they can be? I know I certainly don’t want to go through eternity being the person I am at this moment. Heck, I have so many hang ups... LOL But they are slowly moving into better directions. I guess if I analysed this, the whys of it all..it isn’t to earn immortality... or to get a better “spot” in heaven or anything of the nature. I love God and I want to know God better. I want feel His/Her love every moment of my life and give Him/Her something in return because of my gratitude for this unconditional Love. My love, my devotion, flows in the directions that feel right and best for me... and no one can choose that for another. It is the discovery of this Love application that is the journey and the joy for each individual. All this other stuff that sounds so hard right now as we look into the future, into the "should be box"... well, it is like breathing. It will happen without a whole bunch of forethought on our part if we keep our eyes focused on Love which underpins everything...

You wrote:
“What if we want to be divine and immortal on a natural love path? Or suppose we want divinity and immortality while following no path at all? The universe's "There are only 2 paths, like it or not, that's the way it is" doesn't sound loving, nor does the God who created it."


Well, I am no help at all as I think there are as many paths to God as the number of beings to walk them. Love lights our way both that Love which emanates from the Source and the Love we reflect amongst ourselves forever and a day. Love unites us always with our divine roots. So we cannot loose our way or be lost if we follow love. And so we can also say that Love finds us too. So it is a win/win situation.

You Wrote:
”I want everyone to experience the bliss of the divine love, and if I can influence people to have a desire to seek it for themselves by putting a thought in their souls that it's the only thing that brings happiness and makes people immortal, they'll make that decision. And if they don't, I set up the universe so that all those who refuse the gift of my love will be refused immortality and divinity."


I must be honest here, Angie. You have assigned very human emotions to “the One” who is impossible for us to know and understand at this time. God truly does not make us do anything. We are given the gift of free will to make our own decisions in every way imaginable from On High. While God loves us always unconditionally, He/She wants our Love for Him/Her given freely as it is the only thing, the only gift we can really give Him/Her. God wants us to experience the joy of traversing “rung by rung” eternity...discovering the wonders inherent in every step. Why? Perhaps so we will better appreciate the gift of life itself... we will better appreciate ourselves. If this Being wishes us to experience Divine Love is it possible that it is because it benefits us beyond anything we can imagine as it allows us access to ever greater understanding greater Truth which is God. Truth which is revealed without words as waves of unbelievable joy touch our hearts and souls...marking/ tattooing them forever with Love.

You wrote:
“When asked how long one must pray for the divine love, why would a loving God respond, "for the rest of your earth life and throughout all eternity?" Even if you follow that path and gain access to the celestial kingdom, it's never enough and the work is never finished, since one must keep praying forever.”


Divine Love is not an obligation . It is not like brushing your teeth or washing behind your ears. No, this is something you do because it feels so wonderful, healing, nurturing and enlightening. It is a gift, truly in every sense of the word. For me, it is like a hug from our Divine Parent. I will gladly reach for it throughout eternity and thank God for the opportunity to do so. It is the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced.... never is it a drudgery or something I force myself to do. I delight as I reach for the Father’s Love!

Oh dear, my post here is getting so long that you may find you need a cup of coffee to stay awake long enough to finish it... but let me just say this.. before I bid you goodnight...
I do not accept all of the tenants expressed in the Divine love community... I do not accept that all the messages are right and all the opinions being spot on. But that can be true of all of us as we view something outside ourselves and try to find discernment. Like many seekers even those riding specific belief vehicles I am a combinations of things I have taken close to heart... be that words in an inspired spiritual book or my own interpretations of them and the world I view at large. These things taken to heart, may very well bear the mark of imperfection...but they also do something very powerful and that is they have kept me searching for God, looking for those tell tale marks of Love. It isn’t the dogmas, the rituals, the philosophies, theologies and tenants of faith that lift us... No it is something far more real. For underneath all these things there is something that unites us...that belongs to every single one of us... and that is the assurance of Divine Love. Regardless of how humans try to package it... It is pure everlasting and absolutely our gift from the One who forms galaxies and whose spirit gravity hold universes together. God is well and truly beyond anything we can think or imagine at this time. But getting ever closer to this unbelievably vast Being is not a task, a curse, or eternal slavery! No it is just the opposite...it is the greatest gift we can ever possibly be given. We are automatically, without lifting a finger, God’s beloved children and we share that with every being on this planet and every world in the far flung galaxy. This Love...it is indescribable... so perfect and gentle and bright and sharp and it stays with you and you feel like you could be like this forever... live in this Love forever. No, Divine Love is never a drudgery. and it is important to keep in mind that no one spiritual group, religion, or individual has a monopoly on it... We/they all have a measure of understanding if you look closely at what is real, allow your soul “to feel” what is real.

I live for the time when we all look with compassion and kindness at each other and with respect accepting that we are all much loved children of God.
We do not have to accept anyone’s views of the Creator of all... We will know Him/Her ourselves and it will be better then anything we will read or discuss. It will come to us in those moments of bliss, one on one with the Creator of all and thankfully it stays with us and grows ever grander as understanding blossoms.
So please do not throw out the baby with the bath water...Look at what is beautiful about Divine Love... not the rules and regulations made up by who knows what ??? Take what is beautiful and leave the rest that doesn’t resonate. Consider opening your heart to the Divine Love that streams from within and without... not because someone says you should or you have to, but because there is nothing better you can ever do for yourself throughout eternity then reaching for the Love that in reality is already yours...

Thanks for listening to all that jabbering... These of course, are my own thoughts written from my own unique experiences. They are precious only to me as your thoughts and beliefs are precious to you. They may not resonate with you or anybody else and that’s okay. Our own journey, walked bit by bit in the footsteps of Love, is worth its weight and then some in gold and in the end they all lead to the same place, God.
Hugs,
Sandy

Angie
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Re: some things to consider

Postby Angie » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:55 pm

Hi Sandy: Thank you for your response. There are some things, however, I find disturbing.

You said: "I wouldn't want to go through eternity being the person I am right now."

How very sad that anyone can say that about themselves. The person right now is who you are and who you will always be. And you aren't happy with that. But if you were happy, you'd be content to go through eternity just as you are right now.

You said: "Humans are the babies of the universe." I find this infantalizing. Humans are highly intelligent and are in no way to be thought of as "children."

No matter how long it takes to reach perfection, the fact that God even suggests "your soul can grow to perfection" doesn't sound loving. The phrase "grow to perfection, no matter how long it takes" implies that there is a high standard to be reached, even if it takes eternity to get there. This further implies people must work, pray, put in effort, or do something to attain it. It sounds conditional. But I say: What if earth wasn't created for growth, and souls weren't meant to be perfected at all? What if there was nothing to earn, nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to obtain? What if your soul doesn't need to purify or transform, and all you need to do is just stay right now as you are? By virtue of being God's creation, you are divine, without earning divinity. By virtue of being God's creation, you are immortal, without earning immortality.

That's love to me right there.

If love is unconditional, why should conditions be placed on immortality?

As a caregiver to children, I can say that I disagree with God the Father's parenting goals. "As a parent, don't you want XYZ goals for your children? Don't you want them to learn kindness, compassion, love?" The answer is no, I don't want anything for children. What they want for themselves is more important than anything I could want for them. Children know themselves far better than their parents do. Whatever they do, whoever they become is OK. I don't care. You can't want something for somebody else.

Similarly, humans know their own hearts and minds much better than God does. As God is a parent, he'd say, "Whatever happens, happens. You know yourself better than I do. I can't teach you spiritual virtues or even want them for you." Spiritual qualities aren't something you cultivate. You either have them or you don't, and you're OK regardless.

God contradicts himself by claiming to love unconditionally, then sets up the universe so there are strait-jacket, strict consequences for virtually every human action under the sun, even if those consequences are supposedly out of love. "I love you, but pay the law of compensation" is saying 2 different things. Even "There's compensation and retribution for all the good and evil deeds done on earth, but I'm patiently waiting for you to accept my divine love, which is your birthright if you want it, so it can lift you out of darkness. You don't have to have it, but if you choose not to take it, the consequence is that you'll continue to suffer" is saying various things at once. It's a veiled threat: My love isn't required (free will), but if you don't take it (if you don't meet this criteria), the result is that you'll continue to suffer (threaten with consequence.)

Concept such as "sin", "As a human I'm not perfect and I make transgressions", "paying the law of compensation to the last farthing", "breaking natural law", and "consequences for breaking natural law" suggest either that God is a strict parent (when he could've created the universe any way he chose) or else that it just puts a lot of stress on people because they'll be constantly analyzing every thought, word, deed and motivation they have to assertain whether it meets an arbitrary standard of "loving." Not to mention it doesn't do much for the self-esteem. Furthermore, the tiniest thing seems to break natural law, and this doesn't make sense. A loving God wouldn't make progression so hard/long, or place restrictions on immortality or divinity, or make the law of compensation so humans have to pay the piper for every single little thing they do or thought they have. If people had to fulfill a law like that, they'd go crazy. The statement that "there are more people in the hells or in the 1st sphere than anywhere else" tells me God's standards are too high and need to be majorly modified. I've noticed a large majority of people who found the divine love path and make it to the celestial kingdom are saints, Jesus, and criminals who worked their way into it or prayed for it. Most people aren't saints or Jesus, nor should they be required to strive to attain that, to gain entry. And working or praying for admittance sounds conditional.

What if there's nothing to strive for in terms of spiritual potential, and you're okay just as you are, with no need to change a thing? What if there's no rung-by-rung up the spiritual ladder at all? Alternatively, what if there is but some people don't enjoy the climb? Why should they be penalized for that?

The front page of this site where it's stated "the answers to all the spiritually relevant questions can be found here" indicates that Divine Love Christianity believes it has all the answers, even if they say to the contrary "it's impossible in this realm to have all the answers." If they didn't have all the answers, they wouldn't be answering what people consider spiritually relevant questions.

There is a very good lecture on the commandments by George Carlin, and how it's unrealistic to ask people to strive to follow them. He then gives examples where love is the motivation behind some instances of lying, coveting your neighbor's spouse, stealing, etc. I highly reccomend you find it on youtube. It's quite informative. In the end, he whittled the 10 commandments down to 2.

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Re: some things to consider

Postby Geoff » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:11 pm

Angie wrote:The front page of this site where it's stated "the answers to all the spiritually relevant questions can be found here" indicates that Divine Love Christianity believes it has all the answers, even if they say to the contrary "it's impossible in this realm to have all the answers." If they didn't have all the answers, they wouldn't be answering what people consider spiritually relevant questions.


Dear Angie,

I don't plan to debate you. But I won't let this statement stand uncontested. I am not sure if this is deliberate on your part, but you have changed the truth in a very subtle way to make a point which seems unnecessarily nasty.

What the first page does say is this:

There would be very few spiritually oriented questions that this site does not answer, as it has over 3,000 pages. For example, these common questions are fully answered:


That is actually very different to what you say it says. The difference is maybe subtle, but its the difference between saying we claim all the answers as opposed to many of the answers. And of course we offer answers to questions people have, and in my 15 years with this site, a great many people have been very pleased with what they found here.

Then the next issue is I think referring to this thread "it is impossible to have all the answers". I did not say that either, although we certainly know of questions that we were refused answers to, but what I did say is it impossible to have the absolute truth. The key here is absolute. Because we don't have the intellect or the language. What that means is we may have only part of the answer, but we would have enough to get going on. For some reason that I do not understand, you seem determined to attack everything that is said to you. If you don't like what we say, why are you bothering to spent so much time here? This has become an exercise in nit picking from your side.

wishing you well,
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.

Angie
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Re: some things to consider

Postby Angie » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:50 pm

This site claims to have a lot of "the truth." Maybe not absolute, but "the truth" nevertheless. But what if there is no such thing as truth? Or what if you don't have enough of the truth to get going on, even though you think you do?

Plenty of religions provide the "many answers" to questions. I couldn't remember the exact front-page paragraph, so was not trying to be knit-picking. The "many answers" you provide to the existential questions feel like "all the answers" to me. The existence of God, the restrictive 2 choices (natural or divine love, black or white, this or that), the certainty of what happens after death, the nature of spiritual laws, the only way to the kingdom, etc. All these things are said with as much fervor on your site as on every other site, and claimed just as ardently to be "the truth" as other sites claim to have their interpretation of "the truth." And every site, including yourrs, claims they have the truth, most of the answers, and a kinder gentler way of looking at the Bible. Y'know, not like those *other* Christians! Everyone does that, including your site.

Also, on one of the site pages it says something to the effect of: "It's sad that not everyone will want the divine love and thus achieve the spiritual heights/potential they are capable of." This is an egotistical statement. For one thing, suppose humans aren't here to achieve spiritual heights at all, because there's no meaning or purpose to life, other than what you give it yourself? Humans are here to live life, not to "grow back to source" or "achieve potential" because there's no potential to be achieved. The spirit world is there if you want help with daily life, but humans are on their own. There's no grand plan or reason for being on earth other than what you yourself decide you want to be here for. There's nothing to mess up and no mistakes to make.

God's "I love you but your actions will have consequences" deliberately induces fear. Not the "you'll go to hell" fear of the Bible, but fear nonetheless.

In the following statements, when I use the term "you", I am referring to spirits or mortals, not "you" as a person. There's a reason why spirits in the 6th sphere aren't interested in hearing about divine love. First, they don't want to be preached to. By passionately proclaiming to them "OMG, the love is the best thing ever, try it and see for yourself, you'll never go back because it feels great", you are preaching!

Second, if you say, "You don't have to, but how could you not want to? Why don't you want to? If you don't do it, these are the consequences. I so want this for you because I love you so much, and I want to share this with you, and I need to get this information out to tell the world, and if you do this, it'll be for your benefit", that's called a guilt trip. You're subtly imposing your will on those who don't want it by attempting to convince them of what would happen if they choose otherwise. You are also stating it with such conviction and certainty that suggesting you might be wrong is folly. A paraphrase of your response on the amazon thread: "Do what you want, but don't complain to me after you're dead. Your associates will be just as ignorant and noone will help you, and you can't say "I was taught X" because the law of compensation makes you responsible for everything, so you'll suffer. You've been warned." Quite an egotistical statement, as if you have many of the answers and the people you are conversing with, do not.

Finally, you aren't sad because we don't want divine love. You're sad because our refusal is what you perceive to be our loss of immortality. DL Christians are doing the exact same thing evangelicals do when they say: "It's sad you won't receive our message because it benefits you in the long run, and without it you cannot be immortal and divine. But it's your choice." That's guilt-tripping.

I think it would be far better to proclaim on a home page that "this is the truth as we see it from a Christian perspective" or the like. It makes little sense when it's proclaimed one can be any path one chooses, then go on to use Christian terminology (God as father, divine parents, his children, sin, etc.) Apparently James Padgett was heavily influenced by Christianity, and even in some of the ancient channeled messages, Pagan spirits supposedly suffered, then prayed for the love and felt it after they cried out to ministering spirits to help them. It's too reminescent of a Christian conversion. It sounds too preachy, with the "God changes not" and such. "This is natural law, human behavior as sin to be repaid", those are Christian concepts. A lot of proof you reference also seems to come from the Bible: quotes, passages re-interpreted,, a lot of Christian channelers.

From my understanding, you were a Christian for a long time before finding divine love, and how it is framed is very Christian-sounding to me, even if claimed otherwise. Now, if there were channelers who used terms that were so generic they didn't have a touch of Christianity influence in them, it might make readers feel as if the channelers could be more objective, having completely dropped Christianity and all its associated deities (God the father, Jesus Christ) from their conciousness.

I see a lot of channelings from Jesus, for example, but not from, say, Hathor or Zeus or Aphrodite or Kali or Cernunnos. They'd be coming at it from a Pagan perspective, you from a Christian one. Love might not be the be-all-end-all for them, but Christians seem to be preachy about love, for some reason.

A disclaimer that this is a heavily influenced Christian site would be immensely helpful. I originally came to the site looking for channelings from generic sources. But when I saw all the differentiation between the natural and divine love, the "divine love is the only way into the eternal kingdom", the "work towards perfection of the soul", I noticed that it might be a different interpretation, but the underlying concept was the same: progression to perfection, divine love as the one true way, etc. Those biblical concepts are found in every version of the Bible. And the Bible's God might have stricter rules, but DL Christianity's interpretation of how the universe works sound just as strict and unloving as the Bible's. So maybe your version of truth is heavily influenced by the Bible, with a slightly softer feel. That doesn't make your version correct, just as the Bible is reportedly in error.

So I wonder if a lot of channels and articles on your site are highly influenced by Christianity. And if they were written so that that influence was removed, how different they might be. The truths you claim might very well be Christian dogma and doctrine, packaged in a different form, which you say is loving but might not be when looked at under a microscope.

But maybe "the truth" is vastly so removed from your version of Christianity that you wouldn't recognize it. If God said to you, "Humans weren't created at all," or "there's no point to life other than what you give it," "there's no such thing as divine love," or something that drastically clashes with what you see as the truth now, your whole world of Christianity would be turned upside-down.
Last edited by Angie on Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.


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