About the concept of Original Sin

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Kris
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About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Kris » Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:00 pm

Hello;

In reading Jesus various messages, i could understand that the old vicarious concept of salvation through the cross has not anymore sense. So, could we say, in regarding to this point, that the concept of original sin as taught in traditional christianity is not anymore actual ? Can we also conclude that there is no reason of argumenting about whether or not Jesus was born without original sin ?

Thanks to help me to clarify this point.

Kris.

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Geoff
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Geoff » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:58 pm

Dear Kris,

Yes that argument is valid, but is not the whole story. Sadly there is another passage in the Bible that is often overlooked, and certainly very rarely discussed, and that is the concept of "the sins of the father". I guess its overlooked because frankly at first glance it seems totally unfair, and does not fit into the rational theological framework developed to explain things. But from Padgett we know this is sadly accurate, see this passage:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


which is discussed here:

Luke - “The sins of the parents are visited upon the children unto the third and fourth generations.”

Now this passage can only really be understood when we think of energy fields, and consider that a soul - especially a baby soul - might be influenced by its immediate surroundings, and that is what does happen. Its not that "sin" is contagious or passed on, but the evil influence of those who are sinful can be passed on. So Jesus had to be protected from that influence, and he was. I should note that Mary and Joseph were carefully selected parents for the messiah, but still the influences upon this earth could have impacted Jesus' soul. I would imagine Joseph and Mary were as good a set of parents as could be found, but nevertheless they were not "perfect".

I must be honest that I did not really see the necessity for Jesus to "have never sinned", if I take the view that he was a human having a human experience. But I now have a much larger view of who he was, and so I see it differently. We do have a contemporary message I believe which confirms he never sinned.

I hope this helps,
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Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.

Kris
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Kris » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:35 pm

Thank you very much for your answer and your quotations which have always been very difficult to understand.

Anyway, the concept of original sin as taught par traditionnal christian churches is, according to my understanding, very theoritical.

In fact in reading again the chapter "A summary of his teachings" we can come to a much better understanding of the uniqueness of Jesus. In it it is written :

"His soul from the moment of birth had enjoyed the pristine purity which the Father has given to all of His children from the time of their creation - a condition that had been lost to them on earth, however, after the first parents refused the Gift of at-onement with Him in His Divine Love and afterward fell from their pure and perfect created state.

At birth, Jesus’ soul was unencumbered by inherited tendencies to sin and was free to fulfill its destiny as created by the Father. His soul was constituted to know the Father and, consequently, from his infancy it was natural for his soul to yearn for at-onement with the Father, thereby drawing to himself the Holy Spirit - that energy of the Father’s Being whose sole function is to carry the Divine Love into the yearning souls of His children. Little by little, the transforming Essence of the Father’s Love infused his soul.

Throughout his childhood and boyhood, because of his constant yearnings for at-onement with God, his soul underwent continual transformation of its nature into the Divinity of the Father. He realized this transformation was taking place as he grew to manhood and enjoyed increasingly closer communions with the Father and an ever growing at-onement with Him".


This sentence "his soul underwent continual transformation of its nature into the Divinity of the Father" makes specially a lot of sense and helps to understand Jesus' uniqueness. Traditional christian churches have never been able to explain clearly how much Jesus was really the testimony of the Divinity of the Father simply because they never understood it.

Kris
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Kris » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:30 pm

I have just been reading the Luke's reference and explanation of the sin transmission.

It would be wonderful if such words could be red and undertood by as many as possible.

I will do my best to let people around me know about this.

Thanks for the information.

Kris

Kris
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Kris » Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:01 pm

Hello Geoff;

I have one more questio on this subject.

In the bible, the "failure" of Adam and Eve is described about the interraction between a serpent and Eve. Traditionaly this serpent is understood to be, originally, the name of an archangel, Lucifer, who seduced Eve.

Through various messages, we came to understand that somehow this original fault is related to a misunderstanding or misuse of love. And this came about because Adam and Eve (or Aman and Amon as they are called in James Padgett messages) left their position of God's children in order to become like God.

In the traditionnal Christian Churches and, of course, in the Bible, very often we found references about angels. Most of the time they are understood as being who were never incarnated. If so is the case, are they being with just a soul and a spirit body like any human that have left the physical world ? Do you know is there any messages who gives more explanation about this concept of angel ? Or is this concept completely wrong ?

Thanks a lot for the precisions.

Kris

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Geoff
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Geoff » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:09 pm

Kris wrote:Hello Geoff;

I have one more questio on this subject.

In the bible, the "failure" of Adam and Eve is described about the interraction between a serpent and Eve. Traditionaly this serpent is understood to be, originally, the name of an archangel, Lucifer, who seduced Eve.


Aah yes. Now it gets difficult for a new seeker, and I wish I could be a P fundamentalist, and tell you a different story, but I am who I am. If you read the P Messages and the Contemporary messages closely they make it plain that no source is perfect. Everything has some error, its just the degree. But I think it even goes further. I think the "angels" actually plan for a source like the P Messages or another one called the Urantia Book to have a certain flavour, to cover certain subjects and yes, definitely, to appeal to certain people. The first thing you should always understand, if your source says NOTHING about a subject, that NOTHING does not mean the subject has no content. Such are real angels. This is the only P Message that says anything:

Ann Rollins experience in the second Celestial Sphere

Then Judas gave us this:

Other Beings


"Jesus" went further in another contemporary message referenced in the Judas message above :

“I would like to be able to answer your question with regard to other possible souls in the visible universe who may have partaken of the Father’s Love, but this information has not been revealed to us.


found here: http://new-birth.net/contemporary-messa ... ct-1989/#1

Well I don't buy much of that. I myself asked the question "How many angel types are there?" and got the reply: "More than the number of life forms on earth!" But I have never published that message. I also KNOW there are beings called midwayers, described in only one place - The Urantia Book. I know this with absolute personal certainty. So yes there are heaps of beings created by God perfect for the job they do, and which the Padgett messages tell us nothing about. Even worse a DL medium has "Jesus" telling us he doesn't know of them. Wow. Jesus did not say that, I am sure. What he did say I don't know. But then the P Messages knows only a tiny bit about who Jesus really is. That's another story.

Kris wrote:Through various messages, we came to understand that somehow this original fault is related to a misunderstanding or misuse of love. And this came about because Adam and Eve (or Aman and Amon as they are called in James Padgett messages) left their position of God's children in order to become like God.


Well who knows how myth arrives. Its correct they were given a choice, but they took the wrong option. And yes it looks like arrogance played its part, humility would have saved them.

Kris wrote:In the traditionnal Christian Churches and, of course, in the Bible, very often we found references about angels. Most of the time they are understood as being who were never incarnated. If so is the case, are they being with just a soul and a spirit body like any human that have left the physical world ? Do you know is there any messages who gives more explanation about this concept of angel ? Or is this concept completely wrong ?

Thanks a lot for the precisions.

Kris


As above. But one more thing. The P Messages also says Lucifer never existed. I don't accept that. So why do the messages say that? And its not just one message? And there could be no real reason why James Padgett would be predisposed to that. Its a real curiosity. However there certainly never was a "devil" with power equal to God. Again the Urantia Book has some good information on Lucifer, but I don't suggest you rush off there and read that. Its a huge book, and I don't know anyone who studies it who came to any conclusion about Divine Love from it. So you could say the single most important topic is not in that book? Almost correct. Its there and is ignored. No emphasis, no explanation, no background. I could write pages on why that is so, but just recall Padgett had to develop his soul to receive his messages and no such thing happened in the Urantia book.

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Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.

Kris
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Kris » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:05 pm

Hello Geoff;

Thanks for your answer. Effectively and as you wrote it is quite difficult to really understand what really happen at this time. In our days we make wrong choices mostly because our environement is vicious. But also many of our mistakes are based upon a wrong uinderstanding of who God is and what God wants. We have a tendancy to consider that our ancestors had all knowlege possible but probably it was not the case. So it is why they went in the wrong direction. The "mistake" they made will probably stay for a long time mysterious.

About angels, it is also difficult to understand how they are looking !!! We read, so now and then, various explanations without being able to get a clear opinion. Beside angels we have also Elfs and many other kinds of spirits. Those spirits seem to have not a spirit body. So it is difficult to find our way among all those spirits !!! Thank you for the link towards Anne Rolling's message. I had red it some time ago but I had forgotten about it.

About the book of Urantia, I heard about it quite some time ago. But I never succeded to read more that few pages mostly because of the language style. May be one day I will succeeed. Who knows !!! Anyway it looks like that "our intellect" will never know or not before a very very long time about many details. Unfortunately we have to cope with it.

Thanks again.

Kris

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Geoff
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Re: About the concept of Original Sin

Postby Geoff » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:32 pm

Kris wrote:About the book of Urantia, I heard about it quite some time ago. But I never succeded to read more that few pages mostly because of the language style.


Dear Kris,

Yes its very very intellectual. And the language is often not understandable, even though I did English at University level. And when all is said and done, it has far less on the issue of spiritual progress than the P Messages, which surely is the most important subject?

hugs
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.


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