Do Celestials lose their individuality

Discussions of the book Judas of Kerioth
William
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Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby William » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:37 am

I have only read a few pages, and I can clearly see these messages are a continuation of the Padgett messages. Furthermore Judas has cleared up a lot of the grey areas, and expanded on the meaning.
The best example for me so far is the message : Do Celestials lose their individuality

After parts of the Padgett messages I was a bit concerned as to whether I wanted to follow the divine path instead of the Natural path. Instinct told me get on the Divine path but I was still worried.
What was of concern, was, I didn't want to become what I thought was exactly the same as GOD and all other spirits as we fill with his substance more and more. I was really concerned with "what about who I am?"
If we lose our spirit body and become one with GOD what does that mean? The question really is, "do I lose my individuality in the process"? I truly felt a bit panicked about this.

When I had pondered this, I knew we didn't lose our individuality as the spirits who came to James P. are Celestials and they seemed to be who they were as an individual. Still the way I read it I had doubt.
Judas's Message "Do Celestials lose their individuality" addresses this directly. It goes a lot further to describe how as we gain more of the fathers love, we attract help from higher places.
I only read this message last night but i was filled with relief. I can't wait to see what else will be in this book.
B.

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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Doles » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:41 pm

Hi,
Let me bite on this. I have to say I am somewhat happy I'm not too bright (I'm not saying that's what you were pretending to be...although I believe you are) because after reading about how vast/spacial this universe is, I've always wondered as to why I shouldn't just drop myself in this Creator's lap if I could. Now, this is not say that I will believe anything everybody says to be straight from Him. All it takes for me is to know there is a Creator, and I'm all in because I can't begin to imagine the wisdom and knowledge He must possess. I would agree with anyone questioning the messengers since we all know humans are too good at taking a pure message and turn it into some religious freak show to promote their egos. My question to you is, was your hesitation about whether the message (about merging into the source) sounded true or not.. or whether you trusted anything close to this Creator would/must be better than anything we've known. If this Creator created us, don't you think any simple or complicated knowledge we possess must mean nothing to Him? Hopefully others will chime in and I'd be interested to learn something here. My theory is that the One who gives knowledge must know more than I could possibly imagine. But I also realize this could be somewhat too simplistic.
Doles
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Geoff
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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Geoff » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:29 pm

Dear Bill and Doles,

Actually this is a very common concern, and ends up being a reason why some people dismiss the Divine Path. If you get one of the many books written by Silvia Browne, called "Life on the Other Side" based on information supplied by her guide, that is her (Silvia's) current position. I discussed that in my book "Is Reincarnation an Illusion?"

This is what she says about the Seventh Sphere on page 185:
Level Seven: The level to which only a few rare souls choose to advance, where the spirit forfeits its identify and is willingly absorbed into the “uncreated mass,” or the infinite, unfathomable force field from which the love and power of God emanate.
and this is what Francine, who is Sylvia's guide, said about the sphere on page 186:
Francine once had a very brief glimpse through the “veil,” as she describes the boundaries between dimensions, into Level Seven. She could vaguely make out a few very indistinct physical forms, but she was so completely overwhelmed by the intensity of God’s palpable presence that she quickly backed away from it.


The counter to that, is that it would appear nothing is ever lost, if you spent years and years, possibly even hundreds or thousands "creating" yourself to a point where this is possible, would Father throw all that away?

And, if you follow the Urantia Book, you learn that the divinity we fuse with, is devoid of personality. That really "proves" we will always be who we are.

By the way Doles, by coincidence I saw your email on a recent communication from Eric, so I presume you know Eric, and probably you knew Victor too?

love,
Geoff
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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Doles » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:18 am

Geoff, I'm going back to my initial point. Tell me this, do you believe in a Creator? Is it possible to outknow the source? My point is, I'm still not quite sure why would she be afraid of anything while going back to Father. If you're talking about not being able to withstand the power then I could understand. But what I'm getting is that we would think we know what's best than the mere Creator, no? Is it blind faith to believe Father knows what's best? Perhaps my christian background does me a disservice here. I just thought once someone accepts that the Creator exists that they should believe and do anything that would take them back to Him. I truly want to hear everyone's take on this because I think I may be off somewhere here. Geoff, I'm not sure who these people are. If you're referring to Victor Zammit, then yes I'm on his email list.
Doles
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Geoff
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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Geoff » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:22 am

Doles wrote:Geoff, I'm going back to my initial point. Tell me this, do you believe in a Creator?


Dear Doles,

My answer to that is no. I don't believe in a Creator. I do however KNOW that He exists, and that He knows me personally, and His love for me is without limit. This I know. :D :D :lol:

Doles wrote: Is it possible to outknow the source?


Of course its not, but that does not mean the view is incorrect. Father has allowed us to make our own way to him. Some may be willing to walk blindfolded, others want to see where they are going. And yet others do not believe in a Prime Source at all, as a personal being. There are a very large number in that basket. Many just have this "universal energy" sort of concept, and may much prefer to be "me" than "universal" Its only when you consider Father to be a PERSONAL God, that you would see things as a Father looking after His children.

Doles wrote:My point is, I'm still not quite sure why would she be afraid of anything while going back to Father.


Hmm - she? If you are referring to Bill, he's very much a he. I can understand his concern. If you can't, well that's the way it is. We are all different. I quoted some stuff from Sylvia, and that encompasses two people who share Bill's perception. Aah, maybe your she was Sylvia?

Doles wrote:I'm not sure who these people are. If you're referring to Victor Zammit, then yes I'm on his email list.


Well that's extremely curious, because you should have received this email today, since it has your email address on it. Your name is very unusual, and that is why I noticed, and being an admin here, I compared the hotmail address, and its yours, and shows your full name Doles Pierre, which you have not shared here, and I would not otherwise know. Of course it could just be you submitted your email address to their mailing list, because I know they had one, and now they are mailing that list:

We have several domains available for adoption. Is anyone interested in these?
They will expire this year:

angelicchurchofdivinelove.net - 03/25/2012
ANGELICCHURCH.NET - Mar. 21, 2012
ITSNOTASINTOBEME.COM - Apr. 26, 2012
ITSNOTASINTOBEME.ORG - Apr. 26, 2012
ANGELICCHURCHOFDIVINELOVE.COM - May. 20, 2012
ANGELICCHURCHOFDIVINELOVE.ORG - May. 20, 2012
JAMESPADGETT.ORG - Jun. 09, 2012

In The Creator's Grace,
Volunteer Eric


Now that's from Eric Niner, the partner of the recently deceased Victor Summers, who lived in Florida. I know Victor Zammit, he lives in Sydney.

love,
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.

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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Doles » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:29 am

Geoff,
It took your response to remind me that I hadn't checked my emails. Yes, I see the email you're referring to. Obviously they have my email...although I probably have not frequented their website as I have done here. Sorry, I was indeed making allusion to Sylvia in my previous response. I do have to take you to task on this last point though:
"My answer to that is no. I don't believe in a Creator. I do however KNOW that He exists, and that He knows me personally, and His love for me is without limit. This I know"
Is this a way of you being more affirmative? Because I couldn't quite reconcile the two statements. In other words, you're saying that you not only believe in the Creator but know that He exists? And the last part of the above sentence is why I guess I was implying the blindfolded following of the Father because I believe He loves us and wants and knows what's best for us. If it is true we came from Him, where do you think the hesitation in going back originate?
Doles
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Geoff
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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Geoff » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:31 am

Doles wrote:Is this a way of you being more affirmative?


Indeed. Belief is not certainty. I have a certainty.

I can't answer precisely for anyone else, but I suspect that if you had no certainty that Father will always seek your highest good, then you would be concerned that you might merge into nothingness. We might have been created by Father, but that was to create us as individuals. Most would want to stay as an individual. I do, and I am sure I will.

love,
Geoff
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James B
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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby James B » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:35 am

Hi Doles,
Sounds like you're currently chewing through the sometimes painful slog of accepting that spiritual knowledge does not accurately find its way "down" to the physical. Spiritual knowledge and ability is based on absolutes, on Laws, while our material learning is based on comparison. That's why we make the (innocent) mistake of assuming that everything has an opposite, and that the opposites are generally equal. Polarity is not strictly necessary in the presence of a system of hierarchical Laws.

As to individuality, I've often held the belief that we don't know ourselves until we know God. Our imperfect love distorts our perceptions. Upon attaining the New Birth, your love is as perfect as God's Love, and so you will have a clear (personal) perception of God, and through that reflection, a clear perception of who you are for the first time.

Hope your having fun! Pondering the depth of the Love and its implications is a source of joy for me.

-James

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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Doles » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:57 pm

Hi all,
I actually like these exchanges.

Geoff, what can I say? Your affirmation simply hits me like a ton of brick! I'm glad I feel like we're saying the same thing because although I don't completely share with the second half of your statement, I don't feel like it's anything major.

James,
Wow, this was deep, no? Perhaps too deep for me! Although I think Geoff may have already clarified this, but there were two sentences in your statement that I'm still pondering on:
"Spiritual knowledge and ability is based on absolutes, on Laws, while our material learning is based on comparison........As to individuality, I've often held the belief that we don't know ourselves until we know God."
Do I make a mistake into thinking that when someone possesses such breadth of knowledge they wouldn't worry as to where Father takes them? That's what I'm advocating I guess, although in a less intellectual way.
Doles
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Geoff
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Re: Do Celestials lose their individuality

Postby Geoff » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:14 pm

Doles wrote:Do I make a mistake into thinking that when someone possesses such breadth of knowledge they wouldn't worry as to where Father takes them? That's what I'm advocating I guess, although in a less intellectual way.


Dear Doles,

Very likely. The statistics are, the higher the IQ, the higher the probability that you will be an atheist. These things (the divine pathway) are not of the mind, they are of the soul. If you are a sixth sphereian, all mindal, I doubt you could have the perspective and faith that is required.

Actually when a long time follower of the messages, Alan Ross spoke to me in 2000 in Santa Cruz during the Annual Retreat, he told me HE did not plan to follow the Divine Pathway. Not sure if that's still his position.

love,
Geoff
Love commands the universe. Man only resorts to control when love is missing.


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